Curse

enxa · Mar 03, 2008, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Lots of bad attitudes here about PUGs, threads about 7 heroes, more control over henchies...
But whose fault it is when a PUG fails?
My oppinion:
Everybodys!

the easiest thing to do is to blame the 13 yr old kid, or blame the one that pulled that extra group, and call him names like NOOB and put him on the ignore list so he cant reply to you.

But we all know thats wrong. All who dont agree with that are in denial!

Why exactly is it your fault?
You simply didnt do enough to add to the team.

You expect too much.

Not that you shouldnt expect anything, but you should expect failure as well as success. You just have to be real and be aware that a PUG will never ever do as well as an organized team. Ever!

Lack of organization.

But even a PUG can be an organized team. You remember that other players are human, right? Talk to them! Spare 1 minute and discuss strategies, usefull builds, favorite ice cream flavours, BEFORE you enter the destination area.

Lack of leadership.

So youre all running arround, everybody just doing their thing, and it doesnt look good? Dont ragequit! Take initiative instead.
Humans are pack animals! What i mean by that is that they will follow the person they percieve as the most able and knowlegable one, or at least, more so than themselves. Use this! Guide the team to success if noone else wont.

Last but not least, too little communication.

You know that when you smile to people, you will get a smile back? Its true

Same goes for talking. Unless someone is really pi$$ed at you, which people in a PUG have no reason to be.
So takl! Say woohoo and gg when youre done with a group of mobs. Give the monk a kiss for a good job. Tell the female mesmer shes hawt. Do your part to make others feel they are in a team. Believe me, they will respond, and it will be fun and the way it was intended to be in a MMO. And if you fail at the mission, you still had fun!

There. I had to say that. Tho it doesnt really look like what it looked in my head, but its all there. Sorry if its long.

Just my oppinion.

bungusmaximus · Mar 03, 2008, 11:09 AM // 11:09

You forget chemistry, sometimes I just can't work with people (or people can't work with me), even if they're skilled. 100 lightyears language barrier also phails pretty badly at times

.

Other points are fine, especially the one where you take a few seconds to discuss tactics, so no 'ogogogogogogogogog omg just goooooooo!'. Those kind of teams are fail and won't work.

BlackSephir · Mar 03, 2008, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Leave me alone. Since Big Bang I've been sticking to my heroes and henchies, PUGs weren't and aren't my concern. I did nothing to improve them, I did nothing to destroy them.

IMA INNOCENT

bungusmaximus · Mar 03, 2008, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Leave me alone. Since Big Bang I've been sticking to my heroes and henchies, PUGs weren't and aren't my concern. I did nothing to improve them, I did nothing to destroy them.

IMA INNOCENT

LOL good one, back then when I sucked I NEEDED pugs to get through the game. Guess I'm not the only one :P. It's just that heroes get boring at times.

baltazar knight · Mar 03, 2008, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by enxa

the easiest thing to do is to blame the 13 yr old kid

hey i'm 13 don't blame me!

well i try to avoid pugs but not all of em are bad okay most of them are bad and are selfish but i met alot of friend when i tried to pug

remember it's still a frickin game

enxa · Mar 03, 2008, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by baltazar knight

hey i'm 13 don't blame me!

well i try to avoid pugs but not all of em are bad okay most of them are bad and are selfish but i met alot of friend when i tried to pug

remember it's still a frickin game

Yes its a game, nice to see someone young realizes that

But why the "most of them are bad and selfish" attitude?
I mean if you go along with that you pretty much shouldnt play any MMO.
We are all just trying to do the same thing, play the game and have fun.

But, it can be true that people are selfish when youre in DoA, or The Deep and that sort of stuff... You cant get into a group as anything thats not a warrior, ele or monk, or ursan... *cry*

Alicendre · Mar 03, 2008, 11:37 AM // 11:37

I entierely agree with you. Most of the PUGs I go with are fine, except maybe for the occasional Fire Rain Ranger, but nobody's perfect

I don't need to PUG, it's just more interesting to talk with people than with heroes/henchmen... Even though going with guildies is better, sometimes I like to meet people. And just like IRL they can be awesome or make you want to smash something.

bel unbreakable · Mar 03, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

an under standing of time would help most pugs nothing worse than spending 20mins sorting out your party and making sure everyone knows it will take at least an hour only to hear the words sorry mate got to go my maw said so 10 mins into mission

isamu kurosawa · Mar 03, 2008, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by enxa

Why exactly is it your fault?
You simply didnt do enough to add to the team.
-I wasn't in the PUG so it can't be my fault.

You expect too much.
Not that you shouldnt expect anything, but you should expect failure as well as success. You just have to be real and be aware that a PUG will never ever do as well as an organized team. Ever!
-I expect my heroes and alliance members to know how to play, they do. All those other people running around LFG are just npc's to make town look populated.

Lack of organization.
But even a PUG can be an organized team. You remember that other players are human, right? Talk to them! Spare 1 minute and discuss strategies, usefull builds, favorite ice cream flavours, BEFORE you enter the destination area.
-Organisation was done before we set off, No matter what build we choose to do. Still those crazy village idiot npc's running around.

Lack of leadership.
So youre all running arround, everybody just doing their thing, and it doesnt look good? Dont ragequit! Take initiative instead.
Humans are pack animals! What i mean by that is that they will follow the person they percieve as the most able and knowlegable one, or at least, more so than themselves. Use this! Guide the team to success if noone else wont.
-Leader is always the one who arranged the particular trip+team build, their idea so its fair. No complaints. "LFG, GLF, L F G (i are hatin thar partee surrch)".

Last but not least, too little communication.
You know that when you smile to people, you will get a smile back? Its true

Same goes for talking. Unless someone is really pi$$ed at you, which people in a PUG have no reason to be.
So takl! Say woohoo and gg when youre done with a group of mobs. Give the monk a kiss for a good job. Tell the female mesmer shes hawt. Do your part to make others feel they are in a team. Believe me, they will respond, and it will be fun and the way it was intended to be in a MMO. And if you fail at the mission, you still had fun!
- We chat more than actually play, it tends to slow down runs but still faster than running a dirty obs tank around somewhere as easy as kryta (you realy do see them everywhere these days). It helps to play with people you actually like.

People who PUG either suck or are in denial. There are plenty of guilds who will accept people with all kinds of login activity as long as the player is polite, sensible and not a jerk. As long as the person can listen to advice they don't even have to be good at the game, listening to advice brings that easy.

the_jos · Mar 03, 2008, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by enxa

Why exactly is it your fault?
You simply didnt do enough to add to the team.

Well, that one comes out of the blue but is perhaps more explained by the items below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by enxa

You expect too much.

I expect the average PUG to be at least on level with a H&H team.
If that's too much to expect, PUGs fail because playing with AI would give more benefit.
If I can't expect a PUG to be on par with a H&H team, there is no reason to PUG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by enxa

Lack of organization.

Perhaps, but it's also a matter of resources.
I can play with someone who is a very decent player but does not have the skills that would work best for the task ahead. Kick or keep?
Specially when 6/8 have the same 'problem'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by enxa

Lack of leadership.

Only possible if the team accepts you as the leader. This can be hard when there are several wannabe leaders in the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by enxa

Last but not least, too little communication.

Agree on that one.

Don't get me wrong, I do PUG from time to time (even yesterday) and do enjoy it most of the time.
Yesterday one of my guildies and me joined a PUG and while he was complaining they were bad I had a good time. It's a matter of perception.

However, and I need to say that, there is a large gap between the average PUG member and the experienced player.
A lot of PUG members seem to lack the 'chemistry' mentioned by bungusmaximus.
That chemistry is part the things you mentioned, part attitude and part skill.

Whenever I PUG, I am an observer.
I try to determine the good and bad qualities of the players and group synergy.
Most of the time I won't take the lead and let others struggle because that's part of learning to lead.
Only when things are going the wrong direction I take over if the group allows that. But when that happens, everyone knows it's 'my' game, my map, my drawing. Follow or fail.

Now there is one big issue.
I play HM 90% of the time and there is less room for error.
The team needs to be ok, players need to be skilled and take responsibility.
Whenever I PUG I keep an eye open for players who might be an asset to our guild. I don't want the average PUG member, I want the top.
In the last month I've seen maybe three to five players I would consider recruiting in our guild.
And maybe 5 more who have potential but don't have the skill yet.
However, if their attitude is right, I might take them even though they are not up to our gameplay yet.

Why do I mention this?
Because on all teams I PUG with there are very few players that I consider more than average players.
That can't be only my fault!

RhanoctJocosa · Mar 03, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

And you decided to let us all know this why?

A little off topic: Can I ask why the quality of PuGs has decreased over time? Are people seriously getting worse at the game over time? I think it might be because the ways of doing things have been refined to the point where anything less of those methods is seen as a waste of time/stupid, and so there's little to no tolerance for mistakes or bad players.

wraithe · Mar 03, 2008, 12:33 PM // 12:33

i would have to be desperate to PuG these days..i usually just get good friends, guildies or heros.

pamelf · Mar 03, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Meh, i'm the person everyone hates in PUG's so i tend to avoid them for everyone's sake. i've been playing this game so long that I hate when a person first time through a misison is trying to tell me how to do it. In conclusion: everyone gets antsy. I'm not a build Nazi or anything, but I've done the missions so many times I just can't be bothered babysitting anymore. There's always that one person in the team who keeps asking "which way now" every 10 seconds. I tell them there's a map on wiki which they can look up so they can stop asking me that, which they refuse to look up. I get angry, they get angry, someone leaves...it all end badly. Everyone's fault really. Solution? I don't PUG. Everyone happy.

To RhanoctJocosa: I don 't think PUG's in general are getting worse, i just think most of them are made up of new players rather than experienced ones. The experienced ones I find are sometimes (obviously not always) a bit like me. like you said, the way of doing things has beens so refined that we find that it's a lot less time consuming and less frustrating just to play H/H.

ogre_jd · Mar 03, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

The attitudes shown in this thread and the current "What is a bad player?" thread are the main reason I'd never join a PUG - or group with other humans, even in my guild, except for those few portions of the game where it forces you to party with actual players (most notably, since I have only Prophecies, "Adventure With An Ally" and "Across The Wall", though the latter's not worth the effort of finding and paying for a gate monkey, really

).

I'd be just the kind of player most of the rather strident elitists here'd hate, too - inexperienced, slow-reflexed, not particularly observant ('cos of the latter two, party wipe'd be inevitable if I were a Monk

), I stop to loot, check and manipulate my inventory, check collectors (frequently - there's too many of the bloody things and I forget which has what :P), free up inventory space (either merching or salvaging),read quest texts, check the maps (I get lost easily, even with the green arrow on the compass), etc., etc., etc...

Of course, the inexeperience goes away with time, though I'd probably never come up independantly with a decent build, even once I get most/all skills unlocked.

Terra Xin · Mar 03, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

You forget chemistry, sometimes I just can't work with people (or people can't work with me), even if they're skilled. 100 lightyears language barrier also phails pretty badly at times

.

Other points are fine, especially the one where you take a few seconds to discuss tactics, so no 'ogogogogogogogogog omg just goooooooo!'. Those kind of teams are fail and won't work.

Oh yeah. You always get into a group with someone that wants to do things in 5 seconds, then rush in and die because they assumed that their team was right behind them *sigh*. Or you get the ones that looove to talk, and make a big habit of it by doing it right in the heat of battle, stressing out the team because they aren't doing their bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

People who PUG either suck or are in denial.

Whatever. People who don't PuG have actually tried to PuG once but failed because they fitted their own profile. *cough* Joining a PuG is exactly like an RA match, you don't know what the group is going to be like, but you do your best because it beats waiting for hours for your guild to get organised. You're not gonna get the best team, but as long as that team can function at a reasonable level, then the standards of play have been met. My mesmer wants to show you his /laugh emote. (OK OK, not 'show'. He's actually gonna laugh at you :P)

gremlin · Mar 03, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

The op has it right

Before I joined a guild I depended on pugs and they are a great way to play the game, when they work, which sadly isn't often these days.

The advent of heroes and combined with recommended builds has removed much from the game.
When you do a mission with people every mission is different when you do them with an AI team they are the same.

The number of people now insisting on a specific build before you can join the party are the worst offenders and do most damage to the GW experience.
You know who you are and you bear 90% of the responsibility for where we are now.

Yes there are bad and stupid builds and strategies, but there are also many good builds and strategies.
It's not your business to beat other people into playing the game your way simply don't pick them, if they ask why tell them your concern.
If you feel you cannot spend 5 min explaining the reason you shouldn't be pugging anyway.

cthulhu reborn · Mar 03, 2008, 12:47 PM // 12:47

I completely disagree when you say it's everybody's fault.

Even though PUG's are not always of the same quality, the problem usually occurs from one or two people who are basically out of control.

A warrior who charges in and aggroes 3 enemy groups that are basically too much is one example. Aggro and luring etc are part of the game mechanics. If you aggro too much then you die. Unfortunately it takes only one person to do this.
Another thing I noticed in PUGs that fails horribly is that some people really just don't look at the chat. Even when you try to explain something they simply are oblivious to it. You can shout all you want, but they will attack the centaurs so you can't get the vine seed for the bonus and you have to start all over again.

There are people out there that I help with my heroes left and right that can be so grateful because they've been trying a certain mission for over a month...I never had that problem but there are people out there who really just don't get it.

I can say with certainty that when I go out with another guildie and we take heroes with us, we do not fail any mission with bonus in normal mode ever. After doing missions a few times and learning the little tricks you simply cannot fail it unless you do something to fail it.
What my point is with that, is that it is up to each individual person to have a learning curve. If you do not learn from your mistakes you either live in your own world where you insist everybody else should change or simply too young.

The official GW site has a wiki on it. It's not rocket science. When I see a certain amount of people with the builds they produce and the tactics they use (or rather the lack thereof) I can only hope they are 13 years old, for their sake.

And honestly, I do not see how that all could possibly be everybody's responsibility or fault.

There is just nothing you can do about people who don't listen to anyone and think it's cool to aggro as much as they can. Many PUGs fail because a too high percentage of people out there who don't get the basics of aggro, luring, killing healers first and targetting the same.
That wouldn't be so bad in the first few missions but it gets very annoying when it's the fire islands, realm of torment and such. They simply should've learned by then. That's how I see it.

A final note to the OP...all your ideas are nice theories but fail with people who always say yes and never listen. They are the worst problem with PUGs and thus none of your ideas have a chance in hell with em.

Monk Gsb · Mar 03, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

i try not to pug for mish's, but i'll pug for the "higher ranked" areas (DoA UW FoW slavers exile) because generaly the ppl there ( with the exeption of UW (unless you go urans) know what there doing lol.

Miska Bow · Mar 03, 2008, 01:02 PM // 13:02

When I pug i do it in low lvl area mostly to recruit for my guild. I always take the time to ask if they done the mission before, if they know how to do bonus, i warn them on what we'll be up against.

But when i get someone with the " go!go!go!" attitude, my fingers get slippery and they end up being kicked from the group.

In the case where the team is stuck with a wammo suffering from the "headless chicken syndrome" i let them run ahead and die and turn of the res on my monk.

I love to help people ingame as i was helped by lots of people, I just wont babysit or fail a mission because of a few bad apples.

Did Glint's challenge for the first time successfully this week end with the help of a Dervish. The guy was nice enough to take the time to ask me about my previous experience in that mission, advise me on how to set up my heroes and everything went well.

We where sucessfull for all the reason mention by the OP. Organization, Leadership (1 leader not 8) communication and most of all NO CHIT CHAT DURING FIGHTING

These are the exact same things i try to obtaint everytime i get in a PUG weather i lead it or not.

CyberMesh0 · Mar 03, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by enxa

Lack of organization.

But even a PUG can be an organized team. You remember that other players are human, right? Talk to them! Spare 1 minute and discuss strategies, usefull builds, favorite ice cream flavours, BEFORE you enter the destination area.

You assume that people are patient enough to want to discuss unimportant things like strategy. That is hard to come by in most situations.

Quote:

Lack of leadership.

So youre all running arround, everybody just doing their thing, and it doesnt look good? Dont ragequit! Take initiative instead.
Humans are pack animals! What i mean by that is that they will follow the person they percieve as the most able and knowlegable one, or at least, more so than themselves. Use this! Guide the team to success if noone else wont.

Sometimes true, but more often than not, false. If the group is a little too chaotic/people won't listen/people don't care, leaving is much less of a headache.

Quote:

Last but not least, too little communication.

You know that when you smile to people, you will get a smile back? Its true

Same goes for talking. Unless someone is really pi$$ed at you, which people in a PUG have no reason to be.

People will make up reasons if they feel like it- it's that simple.

Quote:

So talk! Say woohoo and gg when youre done with a group of mobs. Give the monk a kiss for a good job. Tell the female mesmer shes hawt. Do your part to make others feel they are in a team. Believe me, they will respond, and it will be fun and the way it was intended to be in a MMO. And if you fail at the mission, you still had fun!

I totally agree about the monk praise part- you can't ever find any monks because people always yell at them first. Those who were here for it would remember the THK monk strike for this reason.